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	<title>Comments on: Mistress and Servant Go to Cooking Class</title>
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	<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html</link>
	<description>A Historian's Take on Food and Food Politics</description>
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		<title>By: Rachel Laudan</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-30173</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Laudan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 00:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-30173</guid>
		<description>This seems to me right to the point, Sheila. I would love to see an honest discussion of contemporary live in servants and followers.  Perhaps there aren&#039;t so live in servants in the UK  now, though with an enormously wealthy upper stratum perhaps there are.  But in many parts of the world they are still common.  How come we sweet this whole servant issue under the rug when we talk about food history and even present day food?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems to me right to the point, Sheila. I would love to see an honest discussion of contemporary live in servants and followers.  Perhaps there aren&#8217;t so live in servants in the UK  now, though with an enormously wealthy upper stratum perhaps there are.  But in many parts of the world they are still common.  How come we sweet this whole servant issue under the rug when we talk about food history and even present day food?</p>
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		<title>By: SP Hamilton</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-30171</link>
		<dc:creator>SP Hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 00:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-30171</guid>
		<description>One thing that strikes me, in the quotes about the foolishness of young women choosing penury as seamstresses over domestic work, was that it wasn&#039;t just a choice to do with status. One of the things that comes up again and again, at least in 19th/early 20th century writing from the UK, was the &#039;problem&#039; of what were called &#039;followers&#039;. In other words, servants having a personal life or courtships. Many employers forbade their female servants to have male callers, and I&#039;ve definitely read somewhere (really sorry, can&#039;t remember where) that in 19th century England servants of both sexes were much less likely to marry than other members of the working classes. Those who did marry often left service, so had to find other employment.

So young seamstresses who refused to become housemaids may have been trading short term penury for longer term independence within marriage, as opposed to the security combined with repression of domestic service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that strikes me, in the quotes about the foolishness of young women choosing penury as seamstresses over domestic work, was that it wasn&#8217;t just a choice to do with status. One of the things that comes up again and again, at least in 19th/early 20th century writing from the UK, was the &#8216;problem&#8217; of what were called &#8216;followers&#8217;. In other words, servants having a personal life or courtships. Many employers forbade their female servants to have male callers, and I&#8217;ve definitely read somewhere (really sorry, can&#8217;t remember where) that in 19th century England servants of both sexes were much less likely to marry than other members of the working classes. Those who did marry often left service, so had to find other employment.</p>
<p>So young seamstresses who refused to become housemaids may have been trading short term penury for longer term independence within marriage, as opposed to the security combined with repression of domestic service.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Laudan</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-27430</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Laudan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-27430</guid>
		<description>Thanks for sharing this story, dramatic evidence of changes in the last three generations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for sharing this story, dramatic evidence of changes in the last three generations.</p>
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		<title>By: cassandra</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-27426</link>
		<dc:creator>cassandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 03:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-27426</guid>
		<description>Seeing that there hasn&#039;t been any response from the servants&#039; side in the last year and half, I&#039;ll offer this bit of hearsay. My mother and her mother were “domestics” in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Her mother was from a relatively privileged family in Japan, probably expected to marry into more money than she did. When she came to Canada around 1900, having married a sawmill worker who was 20 years her senior, she had to learn to cook - something that was done by servants in her parents home.  She worked as a domestic, and learned some cooking skills from “the woman of the house” my mother said (interestingly, using terms that were strange to me, and probably from her own period of servitude), including how to make bread (which I doubt she had even eaten in Japan). She apparently baked all the bread for the family, including 6 children. My mother spoke of the wonderful smell of freshly baked bread, and eventually, my mother did bake bread for us, but more as an amusement, not a necessity.  

After graduating from high school, my mom worked as a domestic in Shaughnessy, which continues to be a wealthy enclave in Vancouver.  I only learned that she had been a maid when she was into her mid-80&#039;s and there was a picture of her in her uniform. Who is that?  Looking back, my mother seemed to have a lot of knowledge about domestic activity - how to wax and polish a floor (with paste wax and an electric polishing machine - something no one else in our modest suburban neighbourhood owned), how to shine the mirrors with the old bath towels before they went into the wash, rotating the sheets top to bottom halfway through the week, and how to iron those heavy linen sheets (hint: spray with water and roll in a plastic bag - the trick is how to press without letting the sheet touch the floor). In retrospect, my mother was a good housekeeper, but always seemed angry when she was doing housework. It was not something she enjoyed, and she did not try to teach me these skills while I lived at home. At age 80, when she had a stroke, she acceded to a housekeeper once a week for a very short period. She did not like having someone else doing her housework, a matter not based on economics. She said she needed to do the work herself as part of her rehabilitation. Maybe. What strikes me now is that instead of expressing the pleasure of home ownership around household tasks that other mothers seemed to have (at least to my young eyes), my mom seemed to be conflicted. It is too late to ask her, and I now wonder how much it had to do with her period as a domestic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing that there hasn&#8217;t been any response from the servants&#8217; side in the last year and half, I&#8217;ll offer this bit of hearsay. My mother and her mother were “domestics” in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Her mother was from a relatively privileged family in Japan, probably expected to marry into more money than she did. When she came to Canada around 1900, having married a sawmill worker who was 20 years her senior, she had to learn to cook &#8211; something that was done by servants in her parents home.  She worked as a domestic, and learned some cooking skills from “the woman of the house” my mother said (interestingly, using terms that were strange to me, and probably from her own period of servitude), including how to make bread (which I doubt she had even eaten in Japan). She apparently baked all the bread for the family, including 6 children. My mother spoke of the wonderful smell of freshly baked bread, and eventually, my mother did bake bread for us, but more as an amusement, not a necessity.  </p>
<p>After graduating from high school, my mom worked as a domestic in Shaughnessy, which continues to be a wealthy enclave in Vancouver.  I only learned that she had been a maid when she was into her mid-80&#8242;s and there was a picture of her in her uniform. Who is that?  Looking back, my mother seemed to have a lot of knowledge about domestic activity &#8211; how to wax and polish a floor (with paste wax and an electric polishing machine &#8211; something no one else in our modest suburban neighbourhood owned), how to shine the mirrors with the old bath towels before they went into the wash, rotating the sheets top to bottom halfway through the week, and how to iron those heavy linen sheets (hint: spray with water and roll in a plastic bag &#8211; the trick is how to press without letting the sheet touch the floor). In retrospect, my mother was a good housekeeper, but always seemed angry when she was doing housework. It was not something she enjoyed, and she did not try to teach me these skills while I lived at home. At age 80, when she had a stroke, she acceded to a housekeeper once a week for a very short period. She did not like having someone else doing her housework, a matter not based on economics. She said she needed to do the work herself as part of her rehabilitation. Maybe. What strikes me now is that instead of expressing the pleasure of home ownership around household tasks that other mothers seemed to have (at least to my young eyes), my mom seemed to be conflicted. It is too late to ask her, and I now wonder how much it had to do with her period as a domestic.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Laudan</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-859</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Laudan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-859</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  Thanks for taking the time to type out that long and revealing passage.  Maybe it&#039;s time to hear it from the servant&#039;s side!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  Thanks for taking the time to type out that long and revealing passage.  Maybe it&#8217;s time to hear it from the servant&#8217;s side!</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Balic</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-833</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Balic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-833</guid>
		<description>The is quite a bit to say about the North v the South. n.b. 19th century people are my least favorite people to read, the come across as bloody aweful people.

&quot;In the Southern States, where slaves are trained bytheir masters and mistresses with, special reference to the service of the family in the department of labour allotted them, the difficulty of which we speak is not realized to any great extent. Servitude is their not, as it has been that of their ancestors, and they are, for the most part, ignorant of any higher destiny being attainable or even desirable ; and multitudes of them are contentedly happy, and free from any aspirations after a change of their condition, which, though one of bondage and dependance, is attended by no care or anxiety for the means of subsistence, which with them is the ultimatum of desire.
 
But in the non-slaveholding states, and especially in the northern cities, the case is widely different. The coloured people are free, and when they can find any employment, however menial, which they can conduct on their own behalf, they refuse to become hired servants, or the domestics in families, regarding such service as beneath them, approaching, as they seem to think, to the nature of slavery. And of those who are compelled, for want of subsistence, to enter domestic service, it is their misfortune more than their fault to say that, for the most part, they are mere eye-servants, and are not often found either qualified or trustworthy. 
Their number being very inconsiderable, our population in the North have to be mainly dependant on the Irish and German emigrants, who constitute the great mass of our domestics ; for most strangely it has come to pass that white females, especially in the humble walks of life, however humble, regard the condition of hired servants as beneath them, and the domestic duties of the household too degrading for freeborn Americans ! 
They prefer harder labour, coarser fare, and destitution of a comfortable shelter, if they can only be seamstresses, tailoresses, hat and shoe binders, book-folders, shopkeepers, milliners, or anything else except the hired girls, helps, or domestics of a family. Multitudes of them in all our cities toil from Monday morning until Saturday night in miserable garrets, hovels, and even cellars, working at prices which stint 
them for even the necessaries of life, wither their health, dim their eyes, and often sacrifice their lives, who might be actively and healthily employed in the bustling duties of domestics, at ample wages, with the comforts and even luxuries of life, and a good home. But such is their infatuation on this particular subject, that very few American girls, of suitable age for household service, can anywhere be found in the capacity of 
domestic servants. It is for this reason that Irish and German domestics are almost universally employed 
in the northern cities, and these are, for the most part, wholly uninstructed in the duties of household service ; and however willing multitudes of them are to work for hire, they have to be taught by the mistress of the family even the most common kinds of service, 
being, for the most part, wholly ignorant of the plainest cooking, house-cleaning, washing, ironing, &amp;c., so that they often receive wages for months before they begin 
to make themselves useful in the family, or can at all be relied on for their every-day routine of duty. By this time they often become corrupted by the intercourse they have with other servants during their frequent leisure, and are prompted to demand an advance of wages, 
and to make exactions of time for visiting their numerous cousins and other relatives from the old country, as well as to fill your kitchen with strangers, both male and female, until the annoyance becomes insufferable. Next they abruptly leave the family where they have been taught at great pains, and have but just learned the work they are required to do, either to seek a nurse&#039;s place, or some lighter form of service, for 
higher wages, or, perhaps, to get married to some one of their countrymen, whom you have allowed to quarter upon your premises rather than risk the loss of your servant, now that she has learned how to be useful. These are but a few items in the list of grievances which are perennially multiplied.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The is quite a bit to say about the North v the South. n.b. 19th century people are my least favorite people to read, the come across as bloody aweful people.</p>
<p>&#8220;In the Southern States, where slaves are trained bytheir masters and mistresses with, special reference to the service of the family in the department of labour allotted them, the difficulty of which we speak is not realized to any great extent. Servitude is their not, as it has been that of their ancestors, and they are, for the most part, ignorant of any higher destiny being attainable or even desirable ; and multitudes of them are contentedly happy, and free from any aspirations after a change of their condition, which, though one of bondage and dependance, is attended by no care or anxiety for the means of subsistence, which with them is the ultimatum of desire.</p>
<p>But in the non-slaveholding states, and especially in the northern cities, the case is widely different. The coloured people are free, and when they can find any employment, however menial, which they can conduct on their own behalf, they refuse to become hired servants, or the domestics in families, regarding such service as beneath them, approaching, as they seem to think, to the nature of slavery. And of those who are compelled, for want of subsistence, to enter domestic service, it is their misfortune more than their fault to say that, for the most part, they are mere eye-servants, and are not often found either qualified or trustworthy.<br />
Their number being very inconsiderable, our population in the North have to be mainly dependant on the Irish and German emigrants, who constitute the great mass of our domestics ; for most strangely it has come to pass that white females, especially in the humble walks of life, however humble, regard the condition of hired servants as beneath them, and the domestic duties of the household too degrading for freeborn Americans !<br />
They prefer harder labour, coarser fare, and destitution of a comfortable shelter, if they can only be seamstresses, tailoresses, hat and shoe binders, book-folders, shopkeepers, milliners, or anything else except the hired girls, helps, or domestics of a family. Multitudes of them in all our cities toil from Monday morning until Saturday night in miserable garrets, hovels, and even cellars, working at prices which stint<br />
them for even the necessaries of life, wither their health, dim their eyes, and often sacrifice their lives, who might be actively and healthily employed in the bustling duties of domestics, at ample wages, with the comforts and even luxuries of life, and a good home. But such is their infatuation on this particular subject, that very few American girls, of suitable age for household service, can anywhere be found in the capacity of<br />
domestic servants. It is for this reason that Irish and German domestics are almost universally employed<br />
in the northern cities, and these are, for the most part, wholly uninstructed in the duties of household service ; and however willing multitudes of them are to work for hire, they have to be taught by the mistress of the family even the most common kinds of service,<br />
being, for the most part, wholly ignorant of the plainest cooking, house-cleaning, washing, ironing, &amp;c., so that they often receive wages for months before they begin<br />
to make themselves useful in the family, or can at all be relied on for their every-day routine of duty. By this time they often become corrupted by the intercourse they have with other servants during their frequent leisure, and are prompted to demand an advance of wages,<br />
and to make exactions of time for visiting their numerous cousins and other relatives from the old country, as well as to fill your kitchen with strangers, both male and female, until the annoyance becomes insufferable. Next they abruptly leave the family where they have been taught at great pains, and have but just learned the work they are required to do, either to seek a nurse&#8217;s place, or some lighter form of service, for<br />
higher wages, or, perhaps, to get married to some one of their countrymen, whom you have allowed to quarter upon your premises rather than risk the loss of your servant, now that she has learned how to be useful. These are but a few items in the list of grievances which are perennially multiplied.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Laudan</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-823</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Laudan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-823</guid>
		<description>Adam, thanks for the rest of the quote. Interesting that by 1855 the difference between the US and Europe was so marked.  But I have to wonder if the author was including the southern states.  And whether there was a surge in servanthood in the robber baron era.  I simply don&#039;t know.

Also interesting is the fact that servants changed so rapidly.  I have another wonderful quote on that that I will post soon.

Thanks Judith for the clarification. And to clarify back, I think the entitled young ladies do learn to cook in these classes and do get their hands dirty.  As to cooking programs, their appeal escapes me too.  Perhaps it&#039;s like magic, perhaps it&#039;s a dream world of luxury and elegance for all the insistence on ease.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, thanks for the rest of the quote. Interesting that by 1855 the difference between the US and Europe was so marked.  But I have to wonder if the author was including the southern states.  And whether there was a surge in servanthood in the robber baron era.  I simply don&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>Also interesting is the fact that servants changed so rapidly.  I have another wonderful quote on that that I will post soon.</p>
<p>Thanks Judith for the clarification. And to clarify back, I think the entitled young ladies do learn to cook in these classes and do get their hands dirty.  As to cooking programs, their appeal escapes me too.  Perhaps it&#8217;s like magic, perhaps it&#8217;s a dream world of luxury and elegance for all the insistence on ease.</p>
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		<title>By: Judith Klinger</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-817</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Klinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-817</guid>
		<description>I think my wonderment comes from the concept of bringing along your servant to the cooking class. The entitled one watches, observes, but doesn&#039;t get her hands dirty while still thinking that she now knows how to cook.  
No, it&#039;s the Food Channel that has replaced this kind of class. Within the comfort of your own home you can watch food prepared as theater, again without any mess or smells.   I&#039;m also completely dumbfounded at the popularity of food programs.  Yesterday I was buying some wood carving tools at an art supply store and wound up telling the nice cashier that I would be using them on food.  Her response, &quot;Oh, I love to watch cooking programs! It&#039;s so comforting.&quot;
Her colleague looks over and says, &quot;Yeah, but you never cook.&quot;
Her: &quot;Oh no. I just like to watch.&quot;

While this is not a parallel to the lady and the maid cooking class, it still   makes wonder why an entitled lady would take such a class, and why the cashier lady is comforted by watching Emeril.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think my wonderment comes from the concept of bringing along your servant to the cooking class. The entitled one watches, observes, but doesn&#8217;t get her hands dirty while still thinking that she now knows how to cook.<br />
No, it&#8217;s the Food Channel that has replaced this kind of class. Within the comfort of your own home you can watch food prepared as theater, again without any mess or smells.   I&#8217;m also completely dumbfounded at the popularity of food programs.  Yesterday I was buying some wood carving tools at an art supply store and wound up telling the nice cashier that I would be using them on food.  Her response, &#8220;Oh, I love to watch cooking programs! It&#8217;s so comforting.&#8221;<br />
Her colleague looks over and says, &#8220;Yeah, but you never cook.&#8221;<br />
Her: &#8220;Oh no. I just like to watch.&#8221;</p>
<p>While this is not a parallel to the lady and the maid cooking class, it still   makes wonder why an entitled lady would take such a class, and why the cashier lady is comforted by watching Emeril.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Balic</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-811</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Balic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 02:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-811</guid>
		<description>You might enjoy the rest of the comment then. Book was published in 1855, there are a few comments of slaves in the Southern USA and how this relates to domestic management.

Under such circumstances as here alluded to, it is obvious that the classification of servants recognised in England is impracticable in America. And, moreover, the high notions of equality and independence inspired by a &quot; free country&quot; would render such an army of servants in a household as unmanageable as a regiment of dragoons, and as dangerous to the peace and safety of a family as a &quot; gunpowder plot.&quot; Indeed, there are very few in this country whose income would justify so large an outlay for domestic wages as the foregoing table shows, nor is there any family establishment for private residence in America which could furnish occasion for so many servants</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might enjoy the rest of the comment then. Book was published in 1855, there are a few comments of slaves in the Southern USA and how this relates to domestic management.</p>
<p>Under such circumstances as here alluded to, it is obvious that the classification of servants recognised in England is impracticable in America. And, moreover, the high notions of equality and independence inspired by a &#8221; free country&#8221; would render such an army of servants in a household as unmanageable as a regiment of dragoons, and as dangerous to the peace and safety of a family as a &#8221; gunpowder plot.&#8221; Indeed, there are very few in this country whose income would justify so large an outlay for domestic wages as the foregoing table shows, nor is there any family establishment for private residence in America which could furnish occasion for so many servants</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Laudan</title>
		<link>http://www.rachellaudan.com/2008/05/why-have-we-forgotten-the-servants-part-iii-the-mistress-learns-to-cook.html/comment-page-1#comment-808</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Laudan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 00:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachellaudan.com/?p=344#comment-808</guid>
		<description>Adam, that&#039;s a great quote.  It is especially revealing on how the housewife had (and has in Mexico and many other places I am sure) to teach the servant to cook.

Judith, is the wonderment that cooking classes exist or that cooking classes for the upper class exist?  And I&#039;d be interested to know what you think has replaced them.  Cookbooks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, that&#8217;s a great quote.  It is especially revealing on how the housewife had (and has in Mexico and many other places I am sure) to teach the servant to cook.</p>
<p>Judith, is the wonderment that cooking classes exist or that cooking classes for the upper class exist?  And I&#8217;d be interested to know what you think has replaced them.  Cookbooks?</p>
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